Sex Therapy 101 with Cami Hurst
Welcome to Sex Therapy 101 with your host Cami Hurst. This is the sexiest podcast in the west for all the right reasons. Cami sits down with amazing experts in the field of sexual health and counseling to learn, converse and add her own expert voice to the conversation. Cuddle up with your partner and get ready to have your love life feel more complete.
Sex Therapy 101 with Cami Hurst
Cultural Perspective on Consenting to Unwanted Sex with Amy Furuyama
Notes from my guest Amy Furuyama:
- “I want to acknowledge that many interracial relationships between Asian women and white men are loving, respectful, and not rooted in fetishization. What I’m sharing here comes from the experiences of some of my clients, not a reflection of every interracial relationship.”
- “Japan has formally acknowledged its role in the wartime sexual enslavement of Korean women. However, many Koreans feel that the apologies offered to date have not been sufficient or fully accepted.”
Episode Description:
What happens when cultural values of harmony and collectivism collide with personal sexual boundaries? Amy Furuyama, a Korean American sex therapist, provides a revealing glimpse into how Asian American women navigate consent and unwanted sex within relationships shaped by traditional expectations.
The conversation explores how collectivist values in Asian cultures often prioritize family harmony over individual desires, creating situations where women feel obligated to consent to unwanted sex. "There's this idea of what keeps the family units in harmony," Furuyama explains, noting that women are frequently expected to yield to maintain peace, particularly within marriage. This cultural dynamic creates a troubling pattern where women's boundaries become secondary to relationship stability.
The discussion delves into how historical trauma, like the "comfort women" phenomenon during Japanese occupation of Korea, may contribute to intergenerational patterns affecting bodily autonomy today.
Beyond cultural factors, the conversation examines how the hypersexualization of Asian women in Western media complicates matters, particularly in interracial relationships. These stereotypes often lead to objectification and assumptions about compliance that further undermine consent. Yet despite these challenges, Furuyama sees hope in younger generations who are determined to "break the generational trauma" and reclaim their sexual autonomy.
For clinicians, educators, and anyone concerned with healthy relationships, this discussion offers crucial insights into supporting women from collectivist cultures as they navigate the complex terrain of sexual consent. The conversation underscores that preventing trauma from unwanted sex requires comprehensive education about consent, boundaries, and communication that begins in childhood and respects cultural contexts while empowering individual choice.
Amy Furuyama is a 1.5 gen Korean American immigrant, licensed clinical social worker and sex therapist in Orange County, California. Amy is passionate about working with Asian American and BIPOC communities to help individuals reclaim their sexuality in a way that is empowering and life affirming.
Hello, sex Therapy 101. Friends, you notice I might have taken a break, but we're back and we're excited and I'm really passionate about this new series that I'm going to be offering to all of you. I haven't disappeared. I've been working on some projects that are really going to be offering to all of you. I haven't disappeared. I've been working on some projects that are really meaningful to me, and one of those is a book for the public about my research about regarding long-term outcomes of consenting to unwanted sex, or duty sex as we sometimes call it, and in doing that, adding to my own research over the year, you'll see my hair change, my face change, because these were all recorded over the course of a year and I wanted to talk to experts about the cultural implications or cultural beliefs or the cultural ideas among different communities in the US that might protect people against negative outcomes and that might actually kind of promote people into some of the more negative outcomes. And that is the series I have to offer you. I'm really excited. It's been really meaningful to me, it's been enlightening to me, it's really helped me make sure that this book is what I want it to be for all of you.
Speaker 1:So, with no ado, here we go. This is going to be the intro for the whole series, and I'll give you a little bit of a bio for each, and then we'll jump into the recording of the interview. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Amy Furiyama, who is a Korean American immigrant, a licensed clinical social worker, a sex therapist in Orange County. She's passionate about working with Asian, american and the BIPOC communities to help them reclaim their sexuality in a way that's empowering and life affirming. I appreciated her perspective so much. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Amy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm excited for this interview and looking forward to talking to you. So, yeah, super excited.
Speaker 1:I'm really grateful you consented and were enthusiastic and wanted to chat about this. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, thank you for reaching out.
Speaker 1:All right. So that first question is you know you took a look at my research, which is super generous, and I was curious about from your lens of sexuality and relationships. How would you interpret this, Like what do you see is happening with this research? How would you explain it, like with your clinical lens?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:So, firstly, like, when I saw your video about your research and saw the results of it, um, I just found myself just being like, wow, this really checks out with what I've been hearing also from my clients that it was like I was like, oh, like some of the, even some of the quotes that some of your participants had said it was like familiar words.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, it's like there was so much um resonance in and kind of the woman that I've worked with, um, I remember there's this one quote, you know, you, you mentioned that a participant said she just needs to give in to sex, to just she'd rather do that than deal with his emotions. I was like, oh yeah, like I, I feel like I've heard that. So I think, um, there was just so much again like similar, similar expressions that I've heard. And so, yeah, when I, when I saw your, when I read about your research, it was like, oh yeah, like, totally, everything makes sense, like I can see that happening, terms of like what I, what do I see happening in this research? Um, I saw that you know that I really wanted to educate my clients from what I kind of saw in your research, so that it can be kind of enlightening for them and kind of like normalize that they're not alone, because I think how many?
Speaker 2:of. I think a lot of people and and maybe this has also been your experience in sex therapy is like people feel alone in their struggles. So I think like wow, there's a research that kind of shares similar experiences and you're not alone. So I think it can be really helpful in that way, like hey, if you kind of continue in engaging in the duty, sex like it doesn't mean really bode well for your mental health in in the long run in the long run yeah, yeah, and that you're um, there could be some sort of like hyper vigilance that could like kind of go on and any symptoms of trauma like, oh, this is, this is serious, let's.
Speaker 1:Let's kind of tackle this yeah, yeah, it was interesting because I was like, oh, I've heard these things from my clients too and I think it probably is really validating. I've gotten a few emails when I've kind of released my research that they said that they're like I thought I was the only one. It's really fantastic to be like there's 54% that is having a similar experience to me, but I never hear about it and so I feel alone. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that kind of what you meant by, like, what do you see happening in this research? Like, what would I do with information?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And also, how do you interpret it? Like we've all got different theoretical orientations, right. So someone might be like, oh, this may be like kind of an existential crisis of who am I. Or someone else, through their own different theoretical lens, might say this is what's happening. Or, you know, it's a congruence issue, or it's a consent issue, or it's a yeah, I mean, we've all got those different trainings and different theoretical orientations and just kind of curious how other people interpret it or see it.
Speaker 2:And yeah, yeah, um, I'm thinking of it from like also like a systems perspective. I'm curious about kind of how all this, how the system kind of play a role in in women experiencing this. So I think that's kind of where I'm coming from, um, especially with my population, with asian american women, I think, just like um even down to like their immigration, um like when did you even move over to the United States? How integrated are you with American culture, levels of acculturation? How are you embedded into your faith? There's a lot of like religious communities in, especially for Koreans, like there's there are really plugged into the christian church. So kind of see, kind of like how could all these different things also influence how now you are responding to ccus. Is that is it okay?
Speaker 1:yeah, cus, yeah, yeah, yeah I agree, I'm I'm an lmft, so I'm rooted in systems, and so that makes total sense of me too is how I was seeing this as bigger than just a personal issue, but that it's influenced by so much more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that that population. What are some specific aspects of that community culture that might promote women to consent, or encourage women to consent, to unwanted sex?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was thinking about this and I was thinking, maybe before I answer this question, I think it's probably important to share like my identities, so kind of share my intersectionalities. I'm a 1.5 generation immigrant from South Korea. I moved to the United States when I was six years old. Now I'm 39 years old, so I've been here for 33 years. I'm quite familiar with the American ways and the norms and all that stuff, so I had a lot of time to acculturate to the society. Um, so my answers will be kind of based on just kind of my own lived experience and I want to make it just kind of emphasize that this is my individual kind of what I've seen, and, of course, my experience isn't going to be all the other Asian American women. So just wanted to put it out there. Thank you, yeah, yeah, so yeah, and also noting that with Asian Americans that there are like different groups, right, like so there's Koreans, chinese, japanese, indian, filipino, but Vietnamese. So, but in maybe more of a general sense, though, I think, just in my personal experience and in my practice with the Asian culture, there's kind of like this idea of like collectivism versus individualism. Yeah, sure, it's kind of like what is for the greater good, what keeps the family units in harmony for the greater good, what keeps the family units in harmony. And sometimes that means that not all, but sometimes it means that women, maybe, are more of these caretaking more traditional roles and that there's really more defined roles.
Speaker 2:In the culture, and I'm even thinking at least in the Korean culture, there's a strong sense of hierarchy and like this is where you belong, this is where you belong, and there's almost like like levels. So, for instance, in the Korean language we have something called the honorific language. So, down to the language, we have a language that we reserve for people who are older than us. So again, it's kind of like okay, well, if you're older, then I have to show respect, I have to kind of yield to those older, kind of yield to those older, and even to this day, when I see a Korean elderly person like I have this instinctive to just like bow and that's what I was told like you bow and respect your elders, yeah, so like I think definitely like that's a huge part and how we have to also kind of keep the harmony of the family unit, which may sometimes mean that if you're struggling in your marriage like kind of have to just suck it up and deal with it.
Speaker 1:Like the greater good would supersede what you personally wanted for yourself. Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like oh, do I have a voice here, do I not? Well, I have to kind of just be, you know, be in this role to make sure that you know I'm being a good mother, a good wife.
Speaker 1:um, like, let me just yield to what my husband wants and that's seen as virtuous or good, or the yielding is a positive virtue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, like it's just what you do to keep the peace and harmony in the family unit. Um, so like you don't even question it, like, oh, I should do what my husband tells me to do. And then there's, of course, the idea of patriarchy. In Asian American cultures, kind of like men are prized, like they are number one.
Speaker 1:In that hierarchy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, like even like growing up. So I'm the oldest daughter and I have a younger brother. I remember just like fighting with my younger brother and then my grandmother saw that I like pushed my brother. She was so mad how dare you push the son? So she smacked me like you don't do that to your brother. And I was like I remember thinking, wow, like there must be something different about me as a woman or as a female that I'm not allowed to show my distress with my brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because he was surprised. And my aunt also had two daughters and then she didn't want to have any more kids, but she said she felt pressure to try for another one because it wasn't she only had daughters. So she had a third child and it was a son. So they stopped after that. But there's this idea like you must bear a son to carry on the, the last name, probably in culture, like you must have that um to carry on our lineage, um. So there's that um.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and and just again, I mean I'm more obviously more familiar with the korean culture because I'm korean, but in in korea there's such high rates of domestic violence it's okay, ridiculously high. I think I read somewhere like 46% of DV cases against women were by intimate partners in Korea. Yeah, it's so normalized there where women are like wow, this is just what happens. And if you have that kind of mentality and then you move to the United States more recently, then that's very much ingrained into how you kind of relate in your marriage, in your relationships, like, oh well, I guess, like it's normal to be hit or it's normal to be abused, so like the sense of like, do I even have a voice here? But the interesting thing is it was actually in Korea.
Speaker 2:In South Korea, there was a movement that happened in the late 2010s the 4B movement. Because women were so fed up, they're pissed off, they're like screw this, like we're tired of the domestic violence, we're tired of being paid less than men, so, um, they kind of had this movements right now. I think you might have heard about it recently I have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but explain it because yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's called 4b movements, because the 4b's b is like it's a Korean word, so I don't know all of them, but it's like P1, it's like saying no to marriage, sex dating and having children. Like these are the things women we will like no longer engage in, because screw the patriarchy. So we're gonna like really like get back at you. So there are women who are just completely avoiding all that because they're so fed up with the violence against women as a form of resistance, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, totally like we're gonna resist this. Um, so they're trying to fight back and I'm like, yeah, but I'm curious, like. I'm curious like how that's gonna actually play out in the long run.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, it'll be interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's that. But yeah, I think, definitely going back to what are some factors in how the community culture can promote, cus is like one's level of acculturation. When did you immigrate to the United States? How open is also the communication line in your family unit? Most of the time it's not super open, at least in Asian cultures, where we're not talking about sex Like it's all hush hush. You found out about sex through the media porn books, friends, right. So it's not really talked about, so there's a lot of stigma about that and so we don't really know what's actually like healthy sexual boundaries, like how to have healthy communication, healthy sexual communication um, there's just complete lack of knowledge about body boundaries. So, yeah, when we don't have all those things, it's gonna affect how you kind of are in the, in the marriage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And another thing that kind of came to mind was the interracial relationships and marriages. Okay, and I have some Asian American women. They are dating or married to a Caucasian male. So I am curious about, sometimes, the power dynamics they play out in those relationships. So there's something about kind of also those dynamics of how could interracial relationship maybe even affect possible CUS, because one's lived experience as an Asian American woman may not align with, kind of like someone who has a different culture outside of the Asian culture. Like I'm curious about that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and let me see if maybe some of my thoughts are aligning with your thoughts of do you think sometimes it's possible then for a Caucasian male to maybe exploit that known submissiveness of the Asian culture and like want that be attracted to, that actively pursue that? Is that kind of what, where you were headed with that idea of the interracial, or am I taking it too far?
Speaker 2:Um, I could, I, I can, I can see that happening. Maybe even, like, if it's not conscious, maybe on a subconscious level, that could be happening, because that is definitely true, because Asian women are very hyper-sexualized, right, we are considered exotic, submissive and we're even in a porn category, right, right, yeah, so what does that mean, right? So what does that mean that can lead to? Maybe the sense of like dehumanizing asian women, where, um, this is more like, we're like, objectified in a way, right, and when Asian women are objectified, we're not going to be treated very well, we're not going to be seen as someone who has a voice.
Speaker 2:And I think that is really prevalent here in the United States, where I've heard, even just like, some people in like, just what I've heard is like, I've heard men say like, oh yeah, I'm really into Asian women because they seem like they'll just do whatever I want, or like they'll just, you know, I'm just like, oh, that's so disgusting. Um, yeah, things like that. I think definitely there's kind of like the, the cultural promotion of cus through the, um, hypersexualization of asian american women and sometimes, yeah, maybe that could happen where, whether some men know it or not, that they are maybe seeking maybe that type of dynamic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, agreed yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and another thing came to mind as I was thinking about it. This question was I think another cultural component that could lead to the CUS is being able to note each ethnic group's cultural history, and this idea came to mind. So there's kind of like a conflicted history between Japan and Korea, conflicted history between Japan and Korea. So even as this is, I think it's still pretty recent, but in the 1930s to 1940s, japan occupied Korea and they took tens of thousands of Korean girls and women to be comfort women.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is is new to me.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you're teaching me this, okay yeah, yeah, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, so, um, so the japanese military wanted to have women to have sex with just at their disposal, like, oh, I just wanna you know. And the japanese military agreed to provide this for them, thinking that this will decrease um levels of rape, because we're going to give it our stamp of approval, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, um, and they thought that it could maybe help reduce, uh, I guess, like the amount of venereal diseases that were going around during that time.
Speaker 2:So let's just have like a place where you guys can all just have sex with women. So it's more contained. Actually, it backfired and it increased more rape and more bacterial diseases, but anyways. So this is a really huge pain point in the Korean history because Japan did not recognize that they held comfort women. They just completely said that didn't happen, like completely erased that. This is actual historical events that happened. So there were tens of thousands of Korean girls and women kidnapped and forced into prostitution to serve as sex slaves for the Japanese military and called comfort women right.
Speaker 1:Even the language was used to make this maybe noble or a good thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they're called comfort women Like this is your role to comfort them and their sexual needs. So, um, the majority of the women that were kidnapped and forced to sexual slavery are korean girls and women, but there were also, um, chinese women, I think even some japanese women and some other, um, but the majority were Korean women and they estimate as many as, maybe, I think, 50,000 to like 200,000 girls possibly could have been in this situation. Wow, so that, and just knowing that, I'm just thinking about how trauma is stored in our bones and our muscles and our bodies, okay, yeah, and how this could maybe even lead to that intergenerational trauma where.
Speaker 2:Korean women maybe, are struggling with this idea. That is my body, really my own.
Speaker 2:Or is it for in the service of someone else, especially if there's this really traumatic experience, at least in our, in our culture. Yeah, I'm just I think. When I think about that, I wonder what could have been trickled down into the Korean woman today If my ancestors were possibly in sexual slavery. How much of that messaging could get passed down generations to generations. Now let's say that someone who had an ancestor who was a sex slave, a prostitute, and is now here in the United States and she's trying to figure out her own self and her identity, and now she's in a relationship I would be so curious if there's kind of that, remnants of that in her body, where she's struggling to speak up and saying I don't want to have sex with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. I think that's what really kind of came to mind and I'll be kind of curious, you know, for kind of like the other um groups, like asian um groups, like what is their history that is also being passed down to the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think it's too far of a reach. We I don't know that we have data about that, but we do have data about the Holocaust and the generational trauma that's followed, and so I don't think it's too far of a reach to say the similar thing would be at play there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there are some surviving women. Um, there has been some memoirs where some people have written books about their experience. Um, I haven't read it yet but I think definitely just like even being able to um acknowledge the, the, the cultural history of each groups and how that could even show up in um c us would beUS would be.
Speaker 1:it would be really interesting yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think just kind of another thing that I was kind of looking into online just cause I was curious more about it.
Speaker 2:After reading about your research, I kind of was like I want to kind of read what's out there too.
Speaker 2:So I think I read that there, with Asian Americans, there's also um a later age of sexual debut, there's more conservative, um ideas about sex and engaging in sex, sex or sexual kind of things, um.
Speaker 2:So I think maybe I'll be curious if, like kind of like the later age, you have your sexual debut, then maybe you don't maybe have less time to be able to even practice, like asserting your boundaries or speaking up, because if someone's first sexual debut is now they're married, then like you don't, in some ways you haven't been able to practice that too much, right? So I think that could possibly play a role as well, just at a later age of sexual debut. But yeah, I think it's important because Asian Americans are also considered the fastest growing racial group in the United States, which means that there are going to be a lot more immigrants, people coming in to the United States and immigrating to the United States, a lot of Asian Americans. So that could also play a role in how they may show up in their own sexual kind of experiences here in the United States.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, Did we hit your bullet points? This is fantastic yeah.
Speaker 2:I yeah, Did we hit your bullet points?
Speaker 1:They're all. This is fantastic. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Okay, let me know if we didn't. No-transcript.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what I was. I really struggled to answer this question. Okay, they're like not much. No, I'm just kidding. No, no, really. Yeah, I was really like just like racking my brain. I was like what are some? Because I think, unfortunately, I can only think about the negative things. Like, yeah, the negative things just like popped up immediately. I was like, oh yeah, this and this and this and this, but protective factors. I was like dang like, what are this and this and this and this but protective factors? I was like dang like, what are what is protective? I really struggle with this.
Speaker 2:So I'd be really curious, what other? Maybe if you're also interviewing other Asian American sex therapists like I'm curious what they would say. But like, I was like, I was like maybe, possibly. I mean, this idea came to mind and I was like I don't know if I'm reaching here too, but I was like maybe because, um, typically asian americans, like we, we like value higher education. So yeah, I'm curious with with this value of getting higher education and like, yeah, like it's important to have that. Could there possibility, could there be a possibility that the more education one receives in United States, that there may be possibly a sense of more like openness or expansiveness and learning about different ways to maybe just even interact in a relational setting. Maybe more sense of openness to be like, yeah, this thing isn't working between me and my husband or my partner, like we got to figure something out and maybe educating themselves about. Okay, well, let's read books.
Speaker 1:Let's yeah, prioritizing, looking, learning, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah read books, let's, yeah prioritizing looking, learning, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that was probably the one thing that came up for me um, maybe that and um another. Another thing possibly but it can also backfire is if we do have kind of this sense of like, let's create harmony within the family unit. Maybe sometimes it can work out in a positive way, that there can be a sense of accountability, like, oh wow, I see that you're suffering so much. This is also affecting, maybe, the wellbeing of our family so much. This is also affecting, maybe, the well-being of our family. Um, maybe there's accountability from other people in the family unit or maybe relatives. Maybe that could also lead to one maybe even seeking couples therapy because they're like hey, let's figure this out clearly, something's going on here. Yeah, maybe the sense of like trying to keep harmony in the family unit could be positive, but I was thinking the flip side of that is it can backfire, where a woman can be like oh, I need to keep harmony so let me just, she's lower in that hierarchy.
Speaker 1:There's more of a likelihood that she'd augment herself to for the greater good than for the male to look at the female's distress and say let's change things. Yeah, because that hierarchy yeah exactly, yeah, said it beautifully.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was thinking that too. Like in one way it can be helpful, in one way it cannot, because like, oh well, I don't want to rock the boat here. So let me just deal with this situation where I'm clearly not happy about having sex with my husband, but all these people count on me, or like I. You know people are, um, gonna be very upset if I speak up about this. So let me just try to deal with, deal with it on my own or see, yeah, see if it can be just dealt with between me and my partner. So, um, so yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm less likely, but that is one value that could be used in a different direction, possibly in the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was thinking we can help or maybe not help. It's so like, probably in very individual case by case. But yeah, that's the only thing that really came up and then like what could be protective factors?
Speaker 1:awesome. Okay, if we go on to question four, do you feel comfortable moving to the next one? Yeah, okay, so you know you're an expert in this field. What do you see as a solution for these women? How would you work with a woman? I don't know that you work with couples. I think you work with just individuals right now. Is that right? It's a very few couples. How?
Speaker 2:would you work with this woman? Yeah, yeah, um, I think a lot of it is education, educating, um again, like kind of, as I mentioned, like normalizing that you're not alone, that um that for you to be able to navigate this let's talk about. You know, let's have some good sex education and psychoeducation around consent. Um, let's talk about boundaries what does that look like for you? Let's talk about, um, the sexual health principles. Like. What does that look like for you? Let's talk about, um, the sexual health principles. Like, what does that look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're kind of really incorporating all these things so they are able to have a more kind of holistic view and how they can navigate the situation, instead of just feeling like, oh my gosh, like this really sucks and like I can't do anything about it. But I think there's so much empowerment with education, so just being able to be like, hey, this is how you assert yourself, because I think so many of the times they don't even know how. Yeah, one of my chinese um, american female she's once told me she's like I didn't know, I have a voice and there's tears in her eyes.
Speaker 2:I didn't know I have a voice and I'm like they're like cheerleader. Like you can, you can speak up, like you are, you know you, you can, you totally can. So, like just being able to be there and tell them like you do have a voice, like you can assert yourself, and let's kind of learn more like baby steps on how to get you there, because I don't want it to be too like overwhelming for them, because they're very much ingrained in like how they have been functioning. So, yeah, a lot of education. I think support is really big. Um, I'm hoping to eventually start a support group for asian american women here, um, because I don't see any, yeah, yeah, and and maybe some sort of like, um, like building intimacy for asian american women here in in southern california, something where where another Asian woman can see another Asian woman in the room and be like, wow, we're all kind of in this together and I'm not alone and we can all support each other.
Speaker 1:So being able to have like a support system, I think could be really helpful for women or a couple experiencing this for sure helpful for women, or a couple experiencing this for sure, and I imagine that working on assertiveness skills would be more challenging with your population than maybe a Caucasian born American girl, woman, right, because we've already got maybe more messages. Culturally, that's okay to be assertive, whereas the Asian American population it might be harder to want to learn.
Speaker 2:I will believe that it would be good for them to learn assertiveness skills or yeah, yeah, I could definitely see that yeah, including that into their value system might be more difficult yeah, yeah, it it definitely can, because they're not used to it. It wasn't modeled to them growing up. Modeling might be oh, dad is you know he's the breadwinner, he gets the final say mom defers, although you know I have actually had some clients who said it was maybe the opposite. But it again, you know, it's very individual case by case. But yeah, for the majority it's like wow, I have a voice, can I speak up? Or just being able to say I am allowed to have boundaries, like, yeah, you totally can, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think that's and I think maybe also the reason why I went into this field was I couldn't find and this is more of a personal thing I couldn't find an Asian American sex therapist. When I was looking for one, yeah, I said, where are they? There were very few. And I mean I found someone else and she's Caucasian but she's amazing, I love her so much. But, yeah, I remember just thinking like it's, it'll be nice for other Asian American women to see a familiar face in a way. Absolutely, tell them these things. There's maybe more sense of maybe trust. Yeah, section where, oh, there's a Korean American woman telling me how boundaries has helped her. Maybe it could help me too.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, yeah, has helped her and maybe it could help me too. Absolutely yeah. So a little bit of representation too in the field of, in this area, especially sexuality, for asian americans to see other asian americans talking about sex, breaking the taboo, yeah.
Speaker 2:Learning assertiveness, skills, skills yeah and and um, I think, uh, in the beginning I was a little nervous. I was like, oh my gosh, like I'm in some ways like presenting myself to the world as a sex therapist and I noticed even my own stuff coming up. Like, oh my gosh, I'm a little bit embarrassed, like can I really have an Instagram page with like talking about, um, talking about kink and fetishes, and like what does that mean? And like what does it mean to have good sexual communication? Like I, oh, I was like I was a little nervous about doing that, but I was like you know what, amy? Like this is the work. Like you just put yourself out there in the universe and this will help others in their own sexual journey. So I was like, okay, just do it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I totally resonate with that. I have that experience even to daily, you know, because I have a Mormon background and there's, it's it's deep stuff to say. Can I use the word clitoris? Can I post the word?
Speaker 2:clitoris in a public forum yeah, although on Instagram they're so censored, so you'll write clitoris Right, right, yeah, yeah, but yeah definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome, okay, and so clinically, what we see here? Moving to that question five, do you think this qualifies clinically, as you know, in the DSM, hypoactive desire interest disorder, or do you think this is something else? You know, because I've seen some people being like, oh, this is the diagnosis, so we just got to do desire interventions. And I'm wondering if you're like, yeah, pretty solid in that or if if looking at it more systemically has you leaning different ways yeah, definitely a different way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I read the question and I was like, oh okay, so I think I also have kind of mixed feelings about the DSM.
Speaker 2:But I know why it's there, like, yeah, we need some sort of criteria so people are maybe better organized and how they kind of do their treatment plan, and it's needed for, like, the billing and code.
Speaker 2:So I get it like why we had the dsm, but I, you know, just kind of want to put it out there. I have mixed feelings about the DSM, yeah, so when I read your question I was thinking I think we shouldn't pathologize women's sexuality. So that's what came to mind, like it's kind of like at least in your study, it seemed to me more like this is a woman's choice to you know, she doesn't, obviously she's not thrilled to experience CUS. But I was thinking about kind of like what your research said, where kind of they're doing this in some ways as a. I think it's like a coping mechanism, right, like this is a way where they're trying to survive and maintain, um, some sort of sense of stability in their relationship and, um, it seems more like it is more, yeah, like a relational issue than like hypoactive this like a medical diagnosis of there's something wrong with you yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So so, um, I'm thinking like if we had to like give a code, then maybe like a z63 relational issue, but yeah, I, I think that and I'm not sure if it meets criteria for hypoactive desire, but I don't know. I'm actually curious, like, what do you think?
Speaker 1:I know I'm curious too about other thoughts, but I think initially, women and their partners come to me saying the woman has a problem, she doesn't want sex, and you know they're like it might be hormonal and a lot of times, especially in this situation, I'm like I think this is systemic and relational and as much as we want to put all the focus on the woman to figure out how to make her want sex when she doesn't want to, I don't think it's.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's a diagnosis, so much as it's a systemic problem. Yeah, that they arrived to together. Yeah, because of the dynamics of the relationship or the culture or whatever. And I might also see it maybe more as CPTSD. Yeah, ptsd, yeah, rather than low desire, where these coping mechanisms are her trying to do this difficult situation well and it not going well, right, like it being more about coping. And maybe I mean I was shocked that the majority of the women we interviewed you know when you score the PCLS, it was like 54% were having moderate to severe trauma responses. I'm like I don't know that we have thought about sexual trauma this way before.
Speaker 2:yeah, no yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and that hopefully we can do something about that too, so that it doesn't get to that point for the woman.
Speaker 1:Right. What would you say if you know I'll use that magic? You know overused question. But if you had the magic wand, how would you prevent? What would you wish for younger Asian Americans to kind of prevent this from being part of their story or part of their experience as they navigate their adulthood and their relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, this is a. Is this a segue, kind of, to the question?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, six, yeah, what, what would? What do you wish you could do or what do you think the solution is for that? Like the prevention.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, when I read that question, I actually noticed my my body felt sense of overwhelm. Oh yeah, because I think I was. I so badly wanted to be more of. How can we have a solution for women to not even experience the U? S in the first place? And I was like that's why I think that's what I really would want If we had a magic wand. It was that that we're not even having women experiencing this in the first place then. But then that got me thinking like if we don't want women to even be in that situation in the first place, then like I feel overwhelmed because I was like we have to tackle like these big systemic things which is like the, you know, like patriarchy and sexism and like racism and like gender roles, and I was like, oh, I was like OK, I mean like calm down.
Speaker 1:So I was like OK, neuroscope, neuroscope, I think the things that we have to do, at least I think, for Asian American women to kind of help them.
Speaker 2:Teaching the moms too about body boundaries, consents, having the kids be able to name their body parts, teaching women so that they can quickly discern what they're experiencing is coercion or not coercion, and knowing for themselves what's okay and what's not okay. Communication, and just like being able to have all of that I think could be so helpful, not just asian american women, but just for everyone in all of the United States. I think could be a really good step. But yeah, I mean that's why we do the work we do right.
Speaker 1:And I like that you painted that as a developmental thing, not a do this one thing this one time, but you see it as this prevention be really developmental, with messages all along the way, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I was even when I was thinking about, like, what could babies be? How can babies be learning about consent and body? It goes back to the parent. The parent is also modeling to them. Hey, it's okay that you know you're curious about your genitals. I'm not going to shame you for kind of getting curious and touching your, your penis or your vulva, like this is part of healthy exploration, versus smacking the hand and say, oh, dirty, dirty, don't do that. Yeah, as that early of an age, as in in their baby states, like these are the things that we kind of carry with us through our entire life. So how do we teach that? Well then, the parents also need some good sex ed as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah their whole, like you said, yeah, the developmental piece is absolutely and generational.
Speaker 1:I like that you brought it to that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, for sure, so all of that, um, yeah, so like uh also bringing being able to create sense of support and community with for the asian american women, and sex therapy um teaching communication skills and all of that good stuff.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Do you see? This wasn't I didn't give you this question. It's okay if you hadn't thought about it, but do you see the Asian American community becoming more open to these ideas of a little more individualism, a little more assertiveness, more consent between genders?
Speaker 2:I think definitely more the younger generation, for sure.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I, I see more of my clients are more in the 20s to 40s age range and a lot of them are first-time therapy seekers.
Speaker 2:And then they're like I heard on hit tiktok that maybe therapy might be good for me, or instagram, and, and sometimes the the younger generation, they're like empowered, like I want to break the generational trauma that my ancestors have carried on. I want to be the one to do that and I'm like, yeah, so like, when I see's so like wow, it's really inspiring and there's definitely a little bit more sense of openness when we talk about consent and healthy sexual communication, because they're like sponges, like they want to learn more. Typically, what I've seen is they want to have a more positive and a better life experience than what their parents had to go through, because they see their parents just holding on to all so much traumas from the immigration, like escaping communist countries, escaping war, and they're like wow, wow, this is really affecting my parents and it's affecting me too, and I'm carrying all these traumas myself, but I want to be the one to kind of change that.
Speaker 1:So a lot of courage, a lot of determination in the younger generation in the community yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:I think definitely more openness, so with at least a younger generation. I I do think there could be younger generation. I do think there could be some changes with maybe the older generation, but I think definitely the younger generation is a little bit more like expansive and open to these things.
Speaker 1:Okay thanks for letting me throw a question in there yeah, yeah, yeah yeah no, that's again yeah. And then the last one was like do you have any op-ed commentary? As you watch the video and maybe you thought about the idea you could have had completely fantastic ideas outside of what I was thinking.
Speaker 2:You know I don't want to be looking at op-ed commentary or things that you thought of with this kind of distinguished what coercion means? I think it was like was it verbal coercion but no physical coercion, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that wasn't necessarily my work, that was borrowing from I think it was Zoe Peterson, who's at the Kinsey Institute, or else it was Muehlenhardt who's at the Kinsey Institute, or else or else it was Muehlenhardt, but they did a research study about coercion being on like a spectrum and that, like forced physical coercion was on the most damaging end.
Speaker 1:But then coercion can also be verbal and emotional, um, on another end. And they're like, does this still create damage? That was kind of their question at the end of their research and I'm like, well, I'm going to see, yeah, and then I found us, uh, uh, an assessment of verbal coercion and it had like 10 examples of you know, after you've said no, I think it's called the post refusal scale, and so it was only looking at verbal coercion of tactics that I think a lot of people don't recognize as coercion, where they keep asking, keep asking, keep asking, or they disregard it and start taking off your clothes, or they might out and kind of throw an emotional fit, or they may make an acclaim to authority of I'm the breadwinner or I'm you know. And so then the study it kind of showed which percentage of our population saw which kind of verbal or emotional coercion tactics used.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just kind of curious, like do women even know what they're experiencing? Is the coercion, or were they I?
Speaker 1:don't think so. That's why I asked it. Like that's why at the beginning of the study you know one requirement I was like no history right, we've got to assess for coercion that's not recognized. Yeah, so we can see if it was truly consensual. And I think only 18% of those research participants had none of the emotional or verbal coercion as present in their relationship. It's like, oh my gosh, okay.
Speaker 2:All right, yeah, and I mean I think I really loved all the quotes that you brought into the studies. Like the participants quotes, it really broadens the sense of like realness to their experience.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I remember just reading all those quotes and just my heart breaking. I'm like, oh my gosh, like so sad that you know these. This is our, the realities of many women out there, many women out there and um, just really, yeah, I, I really felt like this research study was so important and like, um, I, I want to share this to my clients. Like, hey, this is what could happen, and I know you want to have a good marriage, so let's work on these things. And maybe that could also lead them to be more motivated. Like, hey, this isn't something that you just wait until decades have passed, especially for like 20s 40s age range. Like this is something that you can actually work on now for the longevity and the health of your relationship. Like, let's tackle this now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it could be kind of a warning bell or like like a you know. Here's why it's not a good strategy in the long run. Is you think you may be helping your relationship and in the long run, it's going to hurt you possibly?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:I I wish I could publish a book that was just the responses of the women, because that was the most powerful for me too, and the most beautiful and the most relatable. And sometimes in research we forget that there are people behind the statistic and and that was the most important part to me in the study was their own words. Yeah, I'm glad they touched you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'm I'm so glad you did this research, um, because it just like certain faces of my client just popped to mind like oh yeah, well, I remember that client said she actually used the word duty sex. So I just did, I just provide duty sex and I just see how much, how long they can hold him over till the next time. This is very intelligent asian american woman, like highly educated and in her 30s, and I'm like oof, this is that's not good for you guys.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we got some work to do, but yeah any last thoughts before I let you get back to your own life.
Speaker 2:No, I think I actually had a question but I have a client coming in two minutes. But I think the last question was just like I was curious really about the level of maybe how one identifies in their religious faith in these settings, Just because I work with a lot of women who have had upbringing in the Christian church and have stayed in the Christian church or they've deconstructed from it. So I was just like I wonder, I was just kind of curious about that.
Speaker 1:Agreed, agreed, most of the demographics were homogenous. Where this was, mostly educated, white, cis, christian women and I've got that question too is is this a religious issue? Is this a US issue? Is this kind of a female issue, you know, and so that's why I'm reaching out to these different communities to be like do you see this here too? Is this a white woman issue? Is this a purity culture issue? Is you know? Because the demographics were so similar. I hope someday the research will be replicated, maybe with diverse populations, but until then, I'm just trying to learn from all the communities around me. Of what do you think? You know, the experts in those communities, what do you think when you look at this? I've got the same question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but yeah, thank you so much. I really found it so enjoyable to kind of look into your research and do this with you. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks, amy, have a good day, bye, See you, bye-bye, and do this with you, so thank you. Thanks, amy, have a good day Bye.